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Old 25-10-2018, 21:55   #1
Stagflation
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Default Free Speech and causing offense

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.d5c9eb2c2178

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The European Court of Human Rights says an Austrian woman’s conviction for calling the prophet of Islam a pedophile didn’t breach her freedom of speech.

The Strasbourg-based ECHR ruled Thursday that Austrian courts had “carefully balanced her right to freedom of expression with the right of others to have their religious feelings protected.”
What the actual fuck, we're living under a court that thinks its job is to protect peoples feelings?

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."
-- Stephen Fry

Video not working? GO OLDSKOOL! Or just give up. N* is bound to post a better vid.



This bollocks all stems from the Barcelona declaration, mandating that the EU 'respects' Islam, all in the name of trade deals. It's this kind of bullshit that makes me think Brexit is the right thing to do.
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Old 25-10-2018, 21:57   #2
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Old 30-10-2018, 13:37   #3
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Hmm. It's like this gay marriage cake thing. Who's freedom of speech is being protected there? Depending on how you look at it, it seems both have a claim. I'm not sure how I feel about it, perhaps there's no clear right or wrong to it.

Cake maker has individual freedoms of their own. They shouldn't be impinged to back a statement they disagree with. I can understand that. That being said a person shouldn't have a message denied by someone else just because they 'find it offensive' - who's rights are greater here? My instinct was that the baker wasn't really being asked to support gay marriage just by icing the words. I've designed websites for people who have views I disagree with, I've never felt like I've adopted their belief just cos I knocked up a website for them. Can't we reconcile a personal opinion over someones beliefs with a professional service?

People say businesses should be free to do what they like, and 'capitalism will sort it out' but I think that doesn't always have a satisfactory outcome. A common scenario here is what if a cafe owner tells black people to get out of his shop the minute one steps inside. His business, his right to exclude whatever customer he wants? Or is it not discrimination? Some would say the business owner will lose business from boycotts but what if other racists rally around the owner and give it extra business to keep it going? Should we settle things like that over who has the deepest pockets? Shouldn't a law be in place to prevent this sort of thing happening regardless of the free market's response? Of course it is now illegal to refuse custom based on race, because of equal rights, and yet, this cake stuff can be seen as refusing custom based on sexuality. Homosexuality and gay marriage is legal, it's not like they asked the baker to put something on it that could be deemed illegal/hate speech.

That being said I'm uncomfortable with the idea of trying to make private enterprise more like public service, where they cannot turn down work if they simply don't wish to do it.
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Old 30-10-2018, 14:39   #4
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Not sure what any of that has to do with free speech, what concerns me about the OP is that the concept of the hate crime is not contingent on someone being physically hurt, but relies on the 'victim' being OFFENDED. The term Orwellian gets over used but the idea that someone can be labelled a criminal because they've hurt someone's feelings is clearly Orwellian.

As for the whole gay cake story (this story I assume?): I think private businesses should be able to reserve the right to provide or refuse their services and has nothing to do with 'free speech'.
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Old 30-10-2018, 14:43   #5
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It's to do with it because both sides of these things can claim to be having the rights impinged by the other. The baker was 'offended' by the message he asked to pipe out in cream and believed his offence at it was enough to refuse custom. I think it has relevance to the whole thing, yes you can be offended, but so what. We have this thing where we believe that being offended must result in something happening/changing to their benefit.

FWIW I'm in agreement that you shouldn't be jailed for calling Muhammad a paedofile. I would say there's a limit though, i.e not harassing people over their religion but doesn't sound like she was hounding Muslims so...
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Old 30-10-2018, 14:45   #6
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You don't have a right to have a cake made, a business should always retain the right to refuse to provide their services; they're not slaves.
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Old 30-10-2018, 14:47   #7
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What next, going to a Hindu owned curry house and demand they cook you a steak? How about a bacon sarny made by some Muzzies? It's more likely I'd get accused of a hate crime, rather than the businesses perfectly within their individual rights to refuse my request.
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Old 30-10-2018, 14:52   #8
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How about you can think what you want, as long as the impact of your thoughts isn't detrimental to the rights of others?
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Old 30-10-2018, 14:55   #9
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Depends how you define their rights; the point I object to in the OP is that its contingent on someone's hurt feelings. Should you have the right to not to be offended?
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We all want progress. But progress means getting nearer to the place where you want to be. And if you have taken a wrong turning, then to go forward does not get you any nearer. If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man.

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Old 30-10-2018, 14:56   #10
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Yeah but you can do other examples that paint the business as cunts, not the customer. Should a cafe be legally entitled to only serve women? or black people? Literally throwing out white men? I reckon you lot would kick off and rightly so. I simply can't imagine you making the thread on here about it and defending the cafe owner, sorry, can't see it for one second.

Equal rights innit, you can refuse custom based on your own business policies but the policies should be inline with the law on people's basic civic rights. You don't surrender those when you walk into a cafe ffs.

With the cake thing it's not refusing to ice the cake because it's outside of hours or something. It's a completely polite and legal message so by denying it they're straying into another area for refusal. The comparisons people use for the message are always extreme, like 'WHAT IF IT SAID DIE ALL WOGS, OR THEY WANTED A SWASTIKA' i.e EG was having his kid's cake made - but really it's a hell of a lot closer to a black man coming in and asking to have 'Happy 5th Birthday Jamal' with a Jamaican flag on or something and the owner saying, 'Sorry, no, I don't ice cakes for black children' - would that be racist, or completely reasonable by the business to 'serve who they like, they're not slaves'
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